While the EU is considering a limited ban on tourist visas for Russian soldiers, Diana, a Ukrainian refugee in Italy, shows why encounters with Russian tourists can be so triggering.
Russian tourists to the West should be subjected to the same rigorous controls that the Russians impose on Western tourists. For other Russian visitors, ie FSB murderers, they should be limited to visits to the Russian Embassy after they have been identified by DNA, fingerprints and photographs.
Overall, do you think visa restrictions should be used as a political tool to pressure other governments, or should travel be kept entirely separate from international disputes?
I understand - to the degree it is possible to understand - the feeling that citizens of countries whose government commit atrocities should be made to feel unwelcome, even banned, from entry into ‘free’ countries. But I do not agree with the sentiment, no matter how appealing such sentiment may be. The article here mentions more than once that the Russian couple dining at the restaurant were repeating Russian Propaganda narratives. Are those people war criminals? Perhaps they are, but it is unlikely. The real War criminals wont go to public spaces in free countries for fear of being apprehended and charged as war criminals. The people repeating propaganda are simply pawns, ignorant of the facts on the ground. I cannot blame them for believing the lies they are fed. I need not pity them. I need not approve of them. But I do pity them for living in a place where it is nearly impossible to discern the truth from the lies they are fed every time they watch their television or listen to their radios or read their “news”. I live in the United States; definitely a nation whose citizenry could be labeled as supporters of war crimes against countless other countries in the world, yet I do not support these actions. I still have a right to vote - a privilege under attack in my country - and I do not support politicians who support war crimes. I don’t blame anyone, a Ukrainian Emigre or an Iranian Emigre or a emigre from Lebanon, from feeling that Americans should be barred from entry into EU Countries. I sympathize with their views. But darkness does not bring light. Barring citizens from countries with horrible governments does not provide insight, it only reinforces the propaganda being shoved down those citizens’ throats.
If we accept the fact that these individuals are victims of an information bubble, how do we distinguish between someone who is actually a victim and someone who actively supports the war, especially if they both are repeating the same narratives from their countries?
Anna, your question/comment is certainly valid, and I admit I have no perfect answer to your excellent question. So my answer to you will not be satisfactory.
It’s one of those, “where does it stop” kind of responses. But I will try.
First: there is zero chance that any attempt to discern the actual opinion of any Russian about what their government (dictatorship? Kleptocracy? Cult of personality?) is doing in Ukraine. Many reasons for this exist, but I think they can be summed up in just a few categories, the first being fear of retribution, the second being self preservation and the most prominent being how successful the State propaganda campaign is. There is very little accurate information reaching the Russian public about their war against Ukraine.
Second: If we recognize the above to be a fair representation of truth, how can we influence any view other than the one sponsored by the state without exposing the citizenry to what is true and what is not? Even in the situation detailed in the article, we cannot simply assume that the couple believes what they say as opposed to the possibility that they were parroting propaganda due to the belief that they are ALWAYS under surveillance.
Third: To deny all the right to travel, to see with their own eyes the fallacy of the propaganda that they are bombarded with, is a form of surrender to the propagandists.
Last: if we were to support the banning of travel to the citizenry of a country due to their governments action, what would be the end point of such policy? When would such policy come for you and me? There’s more, but I don’t want to belabor the point. If we stand on the side of freedom, it is the harder path. But I feel it’s the correct one. You never know what seed is planted when one human being sees the truth and rejects the lie
Can completely understand why may feel they should ban Russian tourists and/or even feel likewise regarding American tourists for that matter for their nation abandoning Ukraine, NATO, participation in genocide and reckless war in Iran, not to mention the treatment of Cuba and more. At the very least people basking in European hospitality whilst their own nations now stand aside, or actively participate or fund these degradations should be reminded in the most obvious ways that they are comfortably ignoring and therefore complicit to varying degrees in these ongoing, never ceasing and escalating conflicts. Would I expect as an American overseas to be welcome? Surely naive hubris if so, and what a shame to be held in contempt no matter my personal stance. But then why should some casual observer have to distinguish? I have not been able to change this trajectory through knowledge, nor have I left my comfortable life to actively change it, and reminding me every day is, well, understandable. Informed citizens make a change and sipping wine in some cafe is not close to getting out of the chair and changing some protest words into actual daily action.
No you cannot “really force someone to care about politics” the last word definitely not the one I would choose to describe a hugely lethal war of invasion or ongoing genocide of a people. “Force” you chose but I’m not sure how you mean to use it, literally? “Care”, I would choose “think and feel” instead as a goal perhaps or maybe “awareness” as it refers to the narrative of ignorance in Russia that the piece actually mentioned.
One can however take a stand, (a personal and should be considered with others choice) that is the probably extent of the expectation for what “force” implies. If a visitor feels unwelcome that is unfortunate, and mostly food for thought. A small scale example, in Minneapolis many people made it clear where a business or individuals stood. Good on them, choices are difficult but in some cases people consider these choices with employees for instance and go ahead.
So maybe one could consider the gravity of the situation of hate and ignorance and take a stand. Or not, one is a form of resistance, one is acceptance, you choose.
Define “backfire” I do not want to interpret that incorrectly.
Some people say that keeping borders open to Russian tourists helps maintain a connection to Western values,do you think this is still a valid argument?
Continue to allow vetted Russian tourists to enter. But levy a standard Euro 250/person entry fee on each tourist to support a "Ukrainian Civilian/Reconstruction Fund".
Would charging a fee like that actually hold people accountable, or does it just allow the wealthy to buy their way past the moral consequences of their country's actions?
In my humble and removed view, holding these people "accountable" by denying EU entry does little to aid the broader Ukrainian cause. If effectively denied entry, they just go elsewhere (like Dubai, Morocco, Asia, etc.), and likely don't think twice about it. Consider this: if the 160,000 Russian tourists to Italy had all been successfully charged Euro 250 each, that would have yielded Euro 40 million for Ukrainian civilian relief. Expand that idea to the entire EU.....
Of course, my idea unfortunately minimizes the pain and anger felt by the Ukrainian diaspora throughout Europe that see and often interact with these moral interlopers. Your good article makes this clear.
I agree totally with Diana. I see no reason why wealthy Russians living in Russia and supporting the war against Ukraine should be permitted to visit anywhere in Europe or UK. Anyone who left in protest over the war, forced conscription etc , I have no problem with, but the rest.....! If you have money to travel to Europe for holiday purposes you cannot profess to be ignorant or uneducated about the war and what is really happening to Ukraine and the attempted genocide of the population by Russia. The weak and pathetic response by much of Western Europe , to Russian propaganda, false narrative, disinformation and general contempt of the West and democracy is one of the biggest threats we face today. Only Ukraine stands between us and Putin's Russia, yet somehow we like to pretend that Russia is really a "friend" "misunderstood" and that being "nice" and having "meaningful dialogue" will stop Russian aggression ! Try this with the school or office bully and see what happens. Any petition against Russian tourism I will happily sign.
Slava Ukraine and thank-you for an excellent article.
Heroyam Slava! Thanks for your feedback , Alison. Many argue that a total ban plays directly into the Kremlin’s propaganda, what’s your opinion on that ?
Russian tourists to the West should be subjected to the same rigorous controls that the Russians impose on Western tourists. For other Russian visitors, ie FSB murderers, they should be limited to visits to the Russian Embassy after they have been identified by DNA, fingerprints and photographs.
Overall, do you think visa restrictions should be used as a political tool to pressure other governments, or should travel be kept entirely separate from international disputes?
I understand - to the degree it is possible to understand - the feeling that citizens of countries whose government commit atrocities should be made to feel unwelcome, even banned, from entry into ‘free’ countries. But I do not agree with the sentiment, no matter how appealing such sentiment may be. The article here mentions more than once that the Russian couple dining at the restaurant were repeating Russian Propaganda narratives. Are those people war criminals? Perhaps they are, but it is unlikely. The real War criminals wont go to public spaces in free countries for fear of being apprehended and charged as war criminals. The people repeating propaganda are simply pawns, ignorant of the facts on the ground. I cannot blame them for believing the lies they are fed. I need not pity them. I need not approve of them. But I do pity them for living in a place where it is nearly impossible to discern the truth from the lies they are fed every time they watch their television or listen to their radios or read their “news”. I live in the United States; definitely a nation whose citizenry could be labeled as supporters of war crimes against countless other countries in the world, yet I do not support these actions. I still have a right to vote - a privilege under attack in my country - and I do not support politicians who support war crimes. I don’t blame anyone, a Ukrainian Emigre or an Iranian Emigre or a emigre from Lebanon, from feeling that Americans should be barred from entry into EU Countries. I sympathize with their views. But darkness does not bring light. Barring citizens from countries with horrible governments does not provide insight, it only reinforces the propaganda being shoved down those citizens’ throats.
If we accept the fact that these individuals are victims of an information bubble, how do we distinguish between someone who is actually a victim and someone who actively supports the war, especially if they both are repeating the same narratives from their countries?
Anna, your question/comment is certainly valid, and I admit I have no perfect answer to your excellent question. So my answer to you will not be satisfactory.
It’s one of those, “where does it stop” kind of responses. But I will try.
First: there is zero chance that any attempt to discern the actual opinion of any Russian about what their government (dictatorship? Kleptocracy? Cult of personality?) is doing in Ukraine. Many reasons for this exist, but I think they can be summed up in just a few categories, the first being fear of retribution, the second being self preservation and the most prominent being how successful the State propaganda campaign is. There is very little accurate information reaching the Russian public about their war against Ukraine.
Second: If we recognize the above to be a fair representation of truth, how can we influence any view other than the one sponsored by the state without exposing the citizenry to what is true and what is not? Even in the situation detailed in the article, we cannot simply assume that the couple believes what they say as opposed to the possibility that they were parroting propaganda due to the belief that they are ALWAYS under surveillance.
Third: To deny all the right to travel, to see with their own eyes the fallacy of the propaganda that they are bombarded with, is a form of surrender to the propagandists.
Last: if we were to support the banning of travel to the citizenry of a country due to their governments action, what would be the end point of such policy? When would such policy come for you and me? There’s more, but I don’t want to belabor the point. If we stand on the side of freedom, it is the harder path. But I feel it’s the correct one. You never know what seed is planted when one human being sees the truth and rejects the lie
Can completely understand why may feel they should ban Russian tourists and/or even feel likewise regarding American tourists for that matter for their nation abandoning Ukraine, NATO, participation in genocide and reckless war in Iran, not to mention the treatment of Cuba and more. At the very least people basking in European hospitality whilst their own nations now stand aside, or actively participate or fund these degradations should be reminded in the most obvious ways that they are comfortably ignoring and therefore complicit to varying degrees in these ongoing, never ceasing and escalating conflicts. Would I expect as an American overseas to be welcome? Surely naive hubris if so, and what a shame to be held in contempt no matter my personal stance. But then why should some casual observer have to distinguish? I have not been able to change this trajectory through knowledge, nor have I left my comfortable life to actively change it, and reminding me every day is, well, understandable. Informed citizens make a change and sipping wine in some cafe is not close to getting out of the chair and changing some protest words into actual daily action.
What do you think,can you really force someone to care about politics by making them feel unwelcome, or does that approach backfire?
No you cannot “really force someone to care about politics” the last word definitely not the one I would choose to describe a hugely lethal war of invasion or ongoing genocide of a people. “Force” you chose but I’m not sure how you mean to use it, literally? “Care”, I would choose “think and feel” instead as a goal perhaps or maybe “awareness” as it refers to the narrative of ignorance in Russia that the piece actually mentioned.
One can however take a stand, (a personal and should be considered with others choice) that is the probably extent of the expectation for what “force” implies. If a visitor feels unwelcome that is unfortunate, and mostly food for thought. A small scale example, in Minneapolis many people made it clear where a business or individuals stood. Good on them, choices are difficult but in some cases people consider these choices with employees for instance and go ahead.
So maybe one could consider the gravity of the situation of hate and ignorance and take a stand. Or not, one is a form of resistance, one is acceptance, you choose.
Define “backfire” I do not want to interpret that incorrectly.
Yes, ban all Russians.
How infuriating that Russian tourists continue to visit any EU countries!
Some people say that keeping borders open to Russian tourists helps maintain a connection to Western values,do you think this is still a valid argument?
No. It makes no difference, since the number of tourists is insufficient to influence the Kremlin. Block them all!
Continue to allow vetted Russian tourists to enter. But levy a standard Euro 250/person entry fee on each tourist to support a "Ukrainian Civilian/Reconstruction Fund".
Would charging a fee like that actually hold people accountable, or does it just allow the wealthy to buy their way past the moral consequences of their country's actions?
In my humble and removed view, holding these people "accountable" by denying EU entry does little to aid the broader Ukrainian cause. If effectively denied entry, they just go elsewhere (like Dubai, Morocco, Asia, etc.), and likely don't think twice about it. Consider this: if the 160,000 Russian tourists to Italy had all been successfully charged Euro 250 each, that would have yielded Euro 40 million for Ukrainian civilian relief. Expand that idea to the entire EU.....
Of course, my idea unfortunately minimizes the pain and anger felt by the Ukrainian diaspora throughout Europe that see and often interact with these moral interlopers. Your good article makes this clear.
I agree totally with Diana. I see no reason why wealthy Russians living in Russia and supporting the war against Ukraine should be permitted to visit anywhere in Europe or UK. Anyone who left in protest over the war, forced conscription etc , I have no problem with, but the rest.....! If you have money to travel to Europe for holiday purposes you cannot profess to be ignorant or uneducated about the war and what is really happening to Ukraine and the attempted genocide of the population by Russia. The weak and pathetic response by much of Western Europe , to Russian propaganda, false narrative, disinformation and general contempt of the West and democracy is one of the biggest threats we face today. Only Ukraine stands between us and Putin's Russia, yet somehow we like to pretend that Russia is really a "friend" "misunderstood" and that being "nice" and having "meaningful dialogue" will stop Russian aggression ! Try this with the school or office bully and see what happens. Any petition against Russian tourism I will happily sign.
Slava Ukraine and thank-you for an excellent article.
Heroyam Slava! Thanks for your feedback , Alison. Many argue that a total ban plays directly into the Kremlin’s propaganda, what’s your opinion on that ?
Yes?